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 ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion

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PostSubject: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Sat May 11, 2013 4:31 am

ACC ENDURANCE EVENTS SERIES CHARTER 2.0


The ACCEES Charter has been written to deal with the different style of Yacht Racing that we race in our ACC Endurace Event Series Championship. In most races position is all important but in our Endurance Events Series "time" is the paramount aim. For this reason we ask that all competitors adhere to the following rules at all ACCEES race meetings:

RULE 1.1 - All official ISAF RRS rules governing yacht racing are to be adhered to during all ACCEES events, with the exception of Rule 17.1 governing "Proper Course", we at ACCEES do not recognize this rule officialy, there is no correct course only that which provides each competitor the fastest possible time. If a competitor asks that a 17.1 penalty be cancelled at any time during a race, this penalty is to be cancelled imediately without exception, failure to do so may result in disqualification from the event.

RULE 2.1 - All competitors are to avoid contact wherever possible in accordance with official ISAF Rule 14, this rule requires that all competitors avoid contact if it becomes clear that a port boat has failed to give way. Rule 2.1 therefore requires that all competitors must avoid contact at all times and if necessary perform evasive manouvers to ensure that contact is avoided.

RULE 3.1 - "Racing Room" & Penalty Hunting - sufficient racing room must be given to all competitors during an ACCEES Race Meeting, this rule in effect supersedes all ISAF rules that would otherwise allow competitors to exploit these rules to inflict a penalty on a fellow competitor. In Virtual Skipper this is known as "Penalty Hunting" and is strictly prohibited at all ACCEES Race Meetings. Competitors are warned that if at any time this activity is reported to the race host they may be disqualified without warning.

RULE 3.2 - "Racing Room" & Rounding Marker Bouys - sufficient racing room must be given at all times including rounding marker bouys. All competitors are required to give room at the marks and avoid making contact with fellow competitors at all times. Starboard or Port Barging at the marks is strictly prohibited at ACCEES Race Meetings.

RULE 3.3 - "Racing Room" & Land - sufficient racing room is to be given at all times, including any situation to which a fellow competitor may be sailing close to land. Sufficient room must be given by tacking away to allow that competitor to avoid running aground in this situation. Failure to avoid a fellow competitor from running aground even if that competitor does not have the right of way, may result in disqualification from the event.


WIP

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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Sat May 11, 2013 7:51 am

Thanks Dan. How often do we have to avoid land only to have tack back before we get up to boat speed. 3.3 Bitches. let me get up the speed to tack at least. Not you guys though. Just venting.

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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Sat May 11, 2013 3:09 pm

Can you define starboard barging for me?
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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Sat May 11, 2013 3:24 pm

Lets say you are laying a mark going upwind (30twa) with in a few boat lengths and a boat comes reaching down (he overstood) and forces his way inbetween you and the mark. you have to alter coarse to keep from hitting him. That would be starboard barging. Oh did I mention you are both on starboard.

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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Sat May 11, 2013 4:53 pm

Hmm, as I understand the rules the windward boat has to keep clear

(RRS 11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED:When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat.)

until you enter the zone then if he has an overlap

(RRS 18.2 Giving Mark-Room: (a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies.

(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room) you have to give him water as he is entitled to. If no overlap exists he has to keep clear as you are clear ahead.

I have very few problems or unexpected pens by following these rules.

Sorry to sound like a sea lawyer Pat Sleep
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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Sun May 12, 2013 2:55 am

hehehe...alwyas nice to set a post up that generates such interest....GOOD LORD!!! :shock: Wink Laughing

Keep chatting away and Ill read as we proceed, I just thought Id mention the little "WIP" which stands for Work-In-Progress for those of you that dont know...muahahaha! Nothing is iron-clad yet therefore.

Just let me work on it and give it some more thought...if you guys wish me to word something differently then post a message to reflect that. If you think that something has no business being there than post to that effect, however, please try to remember one thing.

ACCEES is only loosely based on ISAF RRS and that we require a charter like this to reflect our "very different" style of racing, we require it to enforce a "fair play" atmosphere, we wish to give our ACCEES hosts the right to enforce a situation in which players can race the clock free of penalty hunters and those that would seek to ruin this concept of fair play on our servers. Please just try to keep that in mind as we proceed gentlemen.

Thank you....keep talkin....very important. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Dan

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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Sun May 12, 2013 5:22 am

Perhaps I wasnt clear.In my post taking a mark orthe boat to starboard and aguy forces his way in. Barging. We are saying the same thing.

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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Sun May 12, 2013 5:47 pm

AussieXII wrote:


RULE 2.1 - All competitors are to avoid contact wherever possible in accordance with official ISAF Rule 14, this rule requires that all competitors avoid contact if it becomes clear that a port boat has failed to give way. Rule 2.1 therefore requires that all competitors must avoid contact at all times and if necessary perform evasive manouvers to ensure that contact is avoided.


Know I am the first to admit that I don't know the rules inside out, but surely Rule 2.1 of our charter would be open to severe abuse from some players on port tack, who would just bully their way across the starboard boat, knowing the starboard boat would HAVE to avoid contact. More than likely these evasive manoeuvres will cost the starboard boat time and probably boat speed.
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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Mon May 13, 2013 2:29 am

USA 77-Pat wrote:
Thanks Dan. How often do we have to avoid land only to have tack back before we get up to boat speed. 3.3 Bitches. let me get up the speed to tack at least. Not you guys though. Just venting.

Ill address each of these by quote in tern guys, so I know what Ive answered and can give each of your comments the attention they deserve.

Like all the ACCEES charter rules they are difficult to guage and even more difficult to enforce. In fact we probably get it more wrong than right in truth. The point is, we have something to assist us in making our decisions which is better than nothing.

I wanted to cover both "Racing Room" for land as well as other obstacles such as spectator boats etc, this, with the belief that nobody has the right to slow another competitor "in any way", forcing another competitor to collide with a spectator boat or run aground is pretty shitty Im sure you will all agree. And it is my intention to weed out ANY player that is willing to engage in "under-handed" tactics to win races.

Position is meaningless, time is of paramount importance, so as we roll through these rules lets keep those things in mind.

Cheers Pat....and mate venting is fine....sheesh, I do enough of that myself. Wink Laughing

Dan Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Mon May 13, 2013 2:42 am

slyfox_72_sco_ wrote:
Can you define starboard barging for me?

Thanks for participating in this discussion Sandy first of all. Everyone that knows me well, knows that I am niether a sailor nor have a sound understanding of official ISAF RRS. So first of all let me address that, this IS a game and because of that I dont believe I need to have a "full" understanding of ISAF RRS to either play the game or to host it. Im kind of learning as I go and thats ok. I've found the whole experience of VSK and race sailing a fairly steep learning curve to say the least, but having said that I find it fun to mull over rules and read them and write them and get a good understanding of them. So just bear with me, help me to understand, try not to ridicule me, Im a learner but I also run a championship series and have done for quite some time now.

The danger as I see it, is that we run a great risk of ruining what may be fun about ACCEES by trying to bring our charter under the scrutiny of Official ISAF RRS. This is NOT the intention of the ACCEES Charter, it is to provide a "supplimentary" rule system to deal with "fair-play" and to deal with "timed endurance races".

Having said all that, let me try to answer your question Sandy:

Starboard Barging as I understand it is when a boat on Starboard Tack, has rights at the marker bouys and instead of rounding the mark as he should, seeks to make contact with the boat on his port side to inflict a penalty before rounding the mark.

Thanks for participating in this discussion guys. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Dan


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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Mon May 13, 2013 4:59 am

USA 77-Pat wrote:
Perhaps I wasnt clear.In my post taking a mark orthe boat to starboard and aguy forces his way in. Barging. We are saying the same thing.

Well I think we are all on the same page then as barging goes, or are we?

The ACCEES Charter keeping in line with our "Fair-Play" doctrine for Endurance Events would dictate that this rule would create a situation in which "Bargers" believing that they have the right to inflict a penalty, that of rule 11? (is that right), would be frowned upon. ISAF says he has rights, we say he does not have rights, he must round the mark with expedience and allow other competitors to do the same, anything else is an obvious hunt for a penalty and therefore against the charter rules for ACCEES Racing.

*He may not make contact at any time

*He may not "slow" another competitor at any time

*He may not hunt for a penalty

...is that what we are saying?

Dan Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Mon May 13, 2013 5:09 am

MANTA GB wrote:
AussieXII wrote:


RULE 2.1 - All competitors are to avoid contact wherever possible in accordance with official ISAF Rule 14, this rule requires that all competitors avoid contact if it becomes clear that a port boat has failed to give way. Rule 2.1 therefore requires that all competitors must avoid contact at all times and if necessary perform evasive manouvers to ensure that contact is avoided.


Know I am the first to admit that I don't know the rules inside out, but surely Rule 2.1 of our charter would be open to severe abuse from some players on port tack, who would just bully their way across the starboard boat, knowing the starboard boat would HAVE to avoid contact. More than likely these evasive manoeuvres will cost the starboard boat time and probably boat speed.

It always has been abused Gaz, I have abused it myself albeit intentionally or unintentionally. "AND" I have seen various other ARC members abuse it also. The situation arises all the time and I am the first to admit that I both like the rule and I dislike the rule, simply because it "can" easily be exploited.

Not really sure I know what to do about this one other than to simply remove it from the charter altogether, but in doing so are we not also removing an official ISAF RRS that Nadeo does not recognise?

Im not sure if I am within my rights to enforce this or not either, its a tough one to call, but by putting this rule up at race meeting it "HAS" stopped alot of unfair sailing, I feel I needed to mention that.

Dan Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Mon May 13, 2013 7:20 am

The thing is if (at the start) I am close hulled at speed and pointed right at the boat on starboard and you try to force your way betweenme and the comettee boat, I will run you into the boat. There is no proper coarse before the start. So bargeing boats can be luffed. You can luff up before the start. I have won a lot of races by staying out of that bull shit and starting mid line. I like to let people pen them selfs out of a race.

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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Mon May 13, 2013 3:00 pm

USA 77-Pat wrote:
The thing is if (at the start) I am close hulled at speed and pointed right at the boat on starboard and you try to force your way betweenme and the comettee boat, I will run you into the boat. There is no proper coarse before the start. So bargeing boats can be luffed. You can luff up before the start. I have won a lot of races by staying out of that bull shit and starting mid line. I like to let people pen them selfs out of a race.

Thats all good and well in a Match Race but not the sort of thing I ever like to see at an ACCEES Race Meeting. I agree that I dont like to start near the commitee boat anymore precisely because of that "stupid rule" and guys will exploit it if they can. Mid Line is good, I sometimes work up behind the crowd at the committee boat come around behind them and move up onto their starboard side, by the next wind shift my position is optimal for me to have starboard on most of the boats, they will have gained absolutely nothing by being so aggressive.

The other option is to start at the port start marker, its often harder to see and make your run accurately but it does often turn out to be a better and cleaner start. If I remember correctly Wild Oats XI made a perfect start from this mark at this years Sydney to Hobart, best start Ive seen anywhere including VSK, she crossed right on the gun....perfect.

Dan Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Mon May 13, 2013 7:37 pm

Dan I diddnt mean I would run a VSK boat into the commettee boat. But on the water people Know not to mess with me and I have to keep it that way. Sounds kind of stupid I know but its a tough world out there. Earn respect and keep them on their toes while your at it. It keeps them honest.

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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Tue May 14, 2013 1:37 pm

Quote :

Thats all good and well in a Match Race but not the sort of thing I ever like to see at an ACCEES Race Meeting. I agree that I dont like to start near the commitee boat anymore precisely because of that "stupid rule" and guys will exploit it if they can.

But when you are letting boats between you and the commitee boat they are slowing you down and breaking the charter then.
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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Wed May 15, 2013 4:42 am

It is a fine line

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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Fri May 17, 2013 7:46 am

There is nothing covering the start in the charter and there will be nothing added, as far as that (starts) goes, everyone must follow full ISAF RRS in relation to this. Everyone must avoid making contact with other boats

But to Olli - Mate people have to give room no matter what, I have always considered it a little unfair that some guys will choose to luff up and squeeze other competitors into the comittee boat, causing all kinds of carnage because the rules say they can do it. I for one have never done this or would ever do this, its dirty play no matter what the ISAF Rules may say about it.

We are racing the clock, if I have 5 boats on my starboard side at the start line I will give them room to start, luffing up to them is NOT trying to avoid contact, and therefore breaking the charter rules.

It is a fine line, but I will say that ISAF Rules apply for starts, and I can only rely on the good nature of my players to give everyone a "fair-go" that is all up to them at the end of the day.

PS: I would also like to say in relation to some of the comments that have already been made, that the point of the ACCEES Charter isnt to break ISAF RRS, it is to work along-side it. This with the purpose of causing a change in thinking from agrressive match racing doctrine, to that of installing a "Consideration Doctrine" in which players will have the "consideration" for other competitors not simply use ISAF rules to gain advantage.

Example: In a real life situation will sailors ram another boat when rounding a mark, or sail so aggresively as to cause collisions just because ISAF RRS says they are in the right? I would say no, no skipper in his right mind would sail in such a way as to risk damage to his boat or risk injury to his crew - now call me a liar.

This is expressly what ISAF Rules are written for or written to try and avoid, safety first is their doctrine and that is the purpose of the ACCEES Charter.

Dan Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Fri May 17, 2013 8:09 am

It is no fun to go around the boat and start way late. On the outher hand it is possable to sail around the bad air at the start line at the boat. The boat end is not always the best place to start. F2 nort starts at the pin alot and he has clear air most of the time, at speed, on port.

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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Fri May 17, 2013 10:13 pm

AussieXII wrote:
But to Olli - Mate people have to give room no matter what, I have always considered it a little unfair that some guys will choose to luff up and squeeze other competitors into the comittee boat, causing all kinds of carnage because the rules say they can do it. I for one have never done this or would ever do this, its dirty play no matter what the ISAF Rules may say about it.

Tricky one this re ISAF and re ACCEES. I agree with both and yet also disagree lol!

At both ends of the line imagine a "NO GO ZONE" to the right of the committee boat (looking upwind) and to the left of the buoy end.
The edges of these "NGZ" are
1) committee boat end: A boat sailing close hauled (sails in at approx 30TWA) on starboard pointing at the committee boat.
2) Buoy end: A boat sailing close hauled on port pointing at the buoy.
3) All other boats should be inbetween these two boats for a fair start according to ISAF and the ACCEES charter imo.

The reason for the rules preventing barging at both ends of the line is to prevent someone getting an unfair advantage by approaching the line on a reach (across the wind) with more speed than boats approaching the line close hauled.

So I think its up to folks to plan their prestart so they keep clear of the "NGZ" and dont get in a position which will require them to force their way in at the start line ends... Time it right so your not mega early.

Having said this, I would always give room by bearing away (not luffing up) 1) If I had room to give and 2) If the boat requiring room is not ahead and going to give me dirty air after crossing the line. If the windward boat is early it is his responsibility to let his sails flap or luff up to slow down becoming on time for the start. Not to bear away across my bow slowing me down as Olli stated.

It is the boats to windwards responsibility to KEEP CLEAR as it would be anywhere on the line.... again plan your prestart well so u have room to leeward and are not early. This should help...

A wee idea Dan. Would you like us members that wish to, to have a go compiling versions of the charter and PM them to you so u can pick what you like and what makes clear sense to you (As the Accees Founder and Guru) to make an Uber Charter, More Representative of the membership as a whole?

Kindest Regards and GW

Ben

P.S. It is ok and allowed to approach the line from the NGZ's as long as there are no boats there!!!
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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Sun May 19, 2013 11:07 pm

AussieXII wrote:
There is nothing covering the start in the charter and there will be nothing added, as far as that (starts) goes, everyone must follow full ISAF RRS in relation to this. Everyone must avoid making contact with other boats

But to Olli - Mate people have to give room no matter what, I have always considered it a little unfair that some guys will choose to luff up and squeeze other competitors into the comittee boat, causing all kinds of carnage because the rules say they can do it. I for one have never done this or would ever do this, its dirty play no matter what the ISAF Rules may say about it.

We are racing the clock, if I have 5 boats on my starboard side at the start line I will give them room to start, luffing up to them is NOT trying to avoid contact, and therefore breaking the charter rules.

It is a fine line, but I will say that ISAF Rules apply for starts, and I can only rely on the good nature of my players to give everyone a "fair-go" that is all up to them at the end of the day.


PS: I would also like to say in relation to some of the comments that have already been made, that the point of the ACCEES Charter isnt to break ISAF RRS, it is to work along-side it. This with the purpose of causing a change in thinking from agrressive match racing doctrine, to that of installing a "Consideration Doctrine" in which players will have the "consideration" for other competitors not simply use ISAF rules to gain advantage.

Example: In a real life situation will sailors ram another boat when rounding a mark, or sail so aggresively as to cause collisions just because ISAF RRS says they are in the right? I would say no, no skipper in his right mind would sail in such a way as to risk damage to his boat or risk injury to his crew - now call me a liar.

This is expressly what ISAF Rules are written for or written to try and avoid, safety first is their doctrine and that is the purpose of the ACCEES Charter.

Dan Very Happy

LOL I should take you racing for real Dan. I've luffed boats out of the start (yachts and dinghies) on too many occasions to recall and forced them to either tack off or risk piling into the committee boat. Its the most aggressive bit of the race usually and its good craic when you have hundreds of thousands of pounds of boat charging at the line and defending your spot at the expense of your competition to get the best of starts.

The enduro starts are quite tame and well behaved compared most servers so I dont think we have to change anything here. jocolor
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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Mon May 20, 2013 2:44 am

Quote :
A wee idea Dan. Would you like us members that wish to, to have a go compiling versions of the charter and PM them to you so u can pick what you like and what makes clear sense to you (As the Accees Founder and Guru) to make an Uber Charter, More Representative of the membership as a whole?

In short yes!

If I were to put in point form what the "aims" of ACCEES are, then perhaps the more ISAF adept could bring their knowledge to bear on those principles to best word the charter to formulate a charter we can all be happy with.

From what I am understanding this would seem virtually impossible to do without simply converging ACCEES into ISAF RRS...or perhaps I am wrong.

The aims of ACCEES:

1. To ensure simulated safe, fair racing within the confines of ISAF RRS.

2. To race against the clock (like a land rally), to minimise the practise or use of Match or Sprint Racing tactics. "Crowding" as I call it, these tactics are used expressly to slow other competitiors down and have no place therefore in ACCEES.

3. To ensure all competitors have the room necessary to produce the fastest possible times. "Racing Room" as I call it. No players have the right to slow another competitor in any way.

4. To produce an environment (or as best we may) free of those that would seek to "exploit" the ISAF RRS. this is the important clause that enables us to kick or ban (disqualify) competitor/s that ignore the racing rules for this event.

I think its also important to mention that was never "meant" to be an official ISAF Race, its something altogether different. I understand a thread like this can seem like a good place to sound off as to everyones knowledge and understanding of official ISAF Rules, I urge you to take caution that ACCEES was never written or intended to fall under the banner of Official ISAF RRS. So please lets not poison what is already so attractive about ACCEES.

I would be very interested to read proposed ACCEES Charters as written by guys that have the know-how.

Dan Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   Wed May 22, 2013 10:45 pm

Ben Thank you for putting my thoughts into English print Smile Exactly what i was going for.
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PostSubject: Re: ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion   

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ACCEES CHARTER 2.0 - Ammendments Discussion
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Virtual Skipper ACC Racing Club International :: ACC Activities & Events :: ACC Endurance Events Series - ACCEES-
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