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 What Rules best suit ACCEES?...

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PostSubject: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:41 pm

I propose that we switch to:

FPC MANUAL PENS for ACCEES races only

Current rules are FPC Auto Pens.


Reasons For FPC MANUAL:

1 Less Pens on the whole.

2 FreePenCancel is still there to give option to ask, cancel or refuse.

3 With less pens happening there will be less incidents of newbies/aliens/hunters not answering requests.

4 It would almost eradicate Nadeos in-correct pens which in my view is a large proportion of all pens given in Auto mode. Even more so in ACCEES races, where we pretty much cancel all pens anyhoo (unless so wrong that they slow our race).

5 The hunters are more obvious when they press 'P', they usual press P more than ten times in a frenzied attempt to pen someone. I think more than 5 'P's from 1 incident should=kick.

6 Fair Fun racing for all, more of the time...


Reasons for FPC Auto (current rules):

.......lets hear them please, I am keen to understand the benefits of our current rule structure......

GW, fairplay and fun for all,
Ben scratch Very Happy

P.S. Do we need proposals to have seconders and all that jazz for a proposal to stick? Sleep lol!
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PostSubject: Re: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:07 pm

I like manual pen Ben. You are correct about hunters pressing P 10 times. I also dont like it when I am racing in a close group of boats and get a pen for just being close to a few boats. Perhaps we could try it in some warm up races. I would second that but I never ketch the ACCEES races so I souldent have any bearing on how ACCEES are run.

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PostSubject: Re: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:45 pm

I'm up for giving Man Pens a go......

If we don't try we will never know.....that wasn't meant to rhyme lol

As Pat has suggested lets give it a trial run....maybe on Gazzas Shetland Map.....???
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PostSubject: Re: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:25 pm

I support Bens proposal of manual penalties and add one bonus side.

7. Most of the accees sailors are well known friends who respond to chat, so even if you press P and nadeo doesn't give a penalty cause you pressed it at wrong time you can ask the player to do it in the chat box.

As a host I have threathened ppl with kicks if I know there was a rule that was ignored. Either way justice has been done Twisted Evil I believe that most of us would automatically agree and do a 360 asap after being asked to do one.

Kick me out off my cloud castle if thinking that we are honest and fair players is wrong.

Olli

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PostSubject: Re: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:36 pm

I have been mulling over the issue of manual pens and comparing what would/might happen if we went that way. I think we should try it. Yesterday I was having a nice first race and copped a 17.1 when I was nowhere near the offended boat - he then left or disconected before I could ask for cancellation- this cost me alot of time and I assume with manual pens it would not have happened.
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PostSubject: Re: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:53 am

We have heard people for man pens. (I am one of them.) Do we have any against man pens? Looks now is a good time to speek up.

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PostSubject: Re: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:49 am

Hi guys,

I have relayed my opinions before on the idea of going to Manual Pens for ACCEES, Season II which none of you were involved with was conducted under Manual Pens - FPC for the full season.

I agree that the Pen Hunters are hi-lighted under this rule system, but thats about it, the hunters still get the pen on you, they still refuse to cancel the penalty cancelation and they still make you 360. Therefore they still have a bearing on your race.

Im not saying FPC Auto Pens is better, Im saying its "no different". But if you all want to race another season of Manual Pens so I can prove that to you then sure. There is NO cure for penalty hunters guys except to kick and or ban them, I believe if we go to Manual Pens then we marry that to an Auto Ban server and start weeding the hunters OUT of ACCEES "permanently".

Manual Pens will create less pens, but the new guys will never learn what they are doing wrong unless they can see a penalty against them, manual pens doesnt teach them anything. ACCEES is NOT exclusive to the ARC it is an OPEN championship, therefore you will always get a fair share of Enduro Racers, Fair Racers, Pen Hunters and Newbies all sharing the track together.

This seems to be a move away from an open championship and a step closer to making it exclusive. That I am not enthusiastic about.

We will try Man Pens again if that is the concensus of the members, and we WILL be putting it to a Poll. Im not against Manual Pens, Im trying to say it doesnt solve the problem.

Cheers guys keep talking Im listening. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Dan

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PostSubject: Re: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:01 am

Dan,

Totally agree with your point re: manual pens not affecting the hunters and how they behave, except potentially highlighting them with the number of times they press pppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp.

However, the reasons for most of us asking for this rule system change, is to remove all the
1 Wrong nadeo pens of which there are many...50% in my view.
2 Situations with newbies who dont understand the current system recieving abuse, kick or bann for not answering pen requests, of which there has been allot recently re: Allans incident 17.1 and Sandys nightmare before.
3 Situations where an 'international' skipper who doesnt speak or understand english, wrecking someones hard earned record attempt.
4 Fear and distraction that "will he or wont he answer" brings to our fun ACCEES experience.

So I guess my point is we are not asking this just to deal with hunters, it wont, nothing ever will. But we believe it will help foster a more appropriate, enjoyable, relaxed and fair environment to race the awesome ACCEES in Wink....

JD
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PostSubject: Re: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:14 am

As an aside - i dont believe it - got another 17.1 in the same bit of ocean today - luckily the other skipper was still there to cancel thank you John, and Gazza confirmed that I did not get too close.
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PostSubject: Re: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:00 am

Well we will leave this thread up for 3 day Ben, then we can put it to a poll question. Obviously there will be 2 schools of thought on this one. On your hi-lighted points:

1. I agree about less Nadeo Pens interference.

2. I agree that for Newbies Manual Pens "may" be helpful.

3. I disagree that Manual Pens will create a situation where someones run (record or not is irrelevant), will not be interfered with by someone that doesnt speak english or has their chat box turned off.

4. I disagree that Manual Pens will release players from distraction or fear because FPC will still be in effect. In fact players spend more time with manual pens looking at the chatbox to see if Nadeo will deliver the penalty or not while Mr Pen Hunter is feverishly working the "P" button.

And one more point if I may...that I have seen Manual Pens "FAIL" to deliver penalties when they should be dellivered. Im not convinced it will create anything more than a headache for the hosts. But once again if it is the consensus of the members then we will consider going to Manual Pens no earlier than Round 5 of the series and even then Im not crazy about moving to a different system "mid-season".

Dan Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:44 am

Dan,

Again with your disagreements, points 3&4, it seems you are focusing on the hunters and bad eggs on vsk.

As I stated in the previous message, I agree with you we cant deal with those sorts of players other than how we do it now= kick or ban.

My points where directed at the innocent good intended players that I am sure we all wish to attract to our servers. Manual pens will surely help prevent these players from accidentally destroying someones race.

Hunters imo are few and far between, and we deal with them as we see them. I firmly believe that some non hunter players are being mistakenly placed in the "hunter" bracket. I also firmly believe we are all at times getting un-necessarily frustrated at innocents that mean no harm (Cafy is a good example) which surely is detrimental to ARC and its principals, but more importantly our enjoyment of VSK.

I believe with Manual Pens we will have the ability to distinguish between innocents and hunters allot easier. Therefore being in a better position to help or just leave be the players that mean no harm.

Regarding manual pens not working sometimes... absolutely agree. Neither does Auto! Better to have no pen at all in Accees than a pen that is wrong, 1 bad pen=chances of a good time over. And we still have the chat on a long reach to discuss the situation (or insist on a 360) if manual pen "FAILS" to deliver.

Looking forward to your poll, I am sure it will be a huge "SUCCESS". I am in no particular hurry to change system mid way. You could add that option to your poll "when should we change" if that's what the majority decide. My preference would be Race1 of Brazil, but I can understand if it needed to wait until race1 of next season. We should however trial it before season 4 is it?

GW and well done on your race win this morning Very Happy:D:D
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PostSubject: Re: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:30 am

I think I would like to hear from more guys on this, otherwise we basically have 3 guys on Teamspeak making a decision that is going to effect everyone. I will put up a Poll question for you in 2 days Ben if you dont want to put it up for yourself.

Perhaps Manual Pens will work better, perhaps it wont, either way I just want to race my boat and I will host NPC races if thats what everyone wants to do.

Put simply there is NO format that insures us getting a "Clean" run, we do our best to kick and ban the players that are causing trouble and sometimes we get pens that dont seem fair, but I have always seen this as something that adds more flavour to a season. The fortunes and misfortunes during a race and season sometimes make for much more exciting racing more well earned victories.

ACCEES Races ARE hard to win, ACCEES Points ARE hard to get, the championship was designed to be HARD, thats what makes it such a great series.

I hear what you are saying, once again I tried Manual Pens for a full season and Im NOT convinced that it was any better or fairer than it is right now. In fact a few of the "at the time" OLD HANDS said how they were glad we had gone back to FPC.

Im sorry but Im not convinced that it is either any better than the current format or will be embraced by all competitors with the same enthusiasm. Some will like it and some will hate it, and some will want NPC and nothing else is acceptable in an ongoing championship such as ACCEES.

But I will put a poll up and see what the status quo is and if we have a majority we will run Manual Pens for another season and see what guys think after the season has ended. Once again Im not keen to go changing rules after the season is underway.

Dan Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:58 am

Hi

Just making sure I understood right, we are still going to run it as FPC that should never change. But the way nadeo will give the penalty would be Manual instead of auto, so to give a penalty you'd have to press the protest button. If you get a penalty you could still ask for cancel, the good side in this is that if you know how to give a penalty you will also know how to respond to a request Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:43 pm

I am for manual pens. It would cut down on the silly pens which nadeo deals out and that the idiots then dont cancel. We have all received such a pen and had the annoyance of no cancellation or the other party leaving the game and ruining a race which lasts so long.

You will always have problems with hunters but at least their colours will be easily shown and action can be taken. Personally it would have to be some very bad behaviour for me to push the button, but push I would if their actions affected me badly.

I already felt quite strongly about this and even more so after the events in the last round.

I'll finish now before I start ranting Wink
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PostSubject: Re: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:55 am

There are points for either version to be used.

I think that we should give it a trial in a couple of old races and see how it goes.
Personally I don't think that you can change the ruling part way through the series. Otherwise you would possibly throw yourself open to complaints/requests from previous races, which would make those rounds null and void Crying or Very sad

Gazza
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PostSubject: Re: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:41 am

How about we trial it by running another 3 Hour Enduro Race, we use it as a preliminary event seperate to ACCEES but still using the same rules, so perhaps we can run a 3 hour and run it using Manual Pens - FPC.

Dan Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:22 pm

SOOOOOOOOOO!

Are we ready to put this to a poll?

Dan Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:55 pm

Born ready...

But you need to get to bed m8 we know what time it is down-under! Sleep
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PostSubject: Re: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:27 pm


As you all know I have been guilty of doing some stupid things on occasion, and I am probable safe in saying we all have. We as a tight group will almost always forgive each other for those mistakes. We think crap but say NP. We are a tight group that way.

We cannot expect that from others that don't grasp what this Endurance Race is about, and can only hope they will recognize the fairness of canceling wrong pens. We all have faced the frustration of someone tagging you "just because", you gave them plenty of room but they want more plus a piece of you. THEY CLAM THEY WERE IN THE RIGHT. No kidding jerk, You give them a mile and they want two. Those guys will be pounding the P on there keyboard. When we used manual before I would find myself using the P to register a complaint but would cancel anyway. Just wanted to let them know.

I see one big draw back to Manual Pens.

It may move some sailors to a more aggressive more sloppy way of sailing. If they know they stand a chance that someone won't hit the "P", they may try to do things a little less proper and try to squeak trough when they normal wouldn't. Sailors in my opinion will be more likely to try and get away with something. This for some will create a mind set to try and get away with it.

I think we could site examples to counter everything that has been said. My only fear is that we will see more aggressive behavior instead of less. Just a little more food for thought. One last thing, I don't like changing the rules in mid stream. I would like to see a trial outside of the championship series, with the option for changes in the future.

John


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PostSubject: Re: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:49 am

Very good points John, and if I remember correctly you joined ACCEES mid Season II (San Francisco) when we were running Manual Pens. Its these experiences I wanted to draw on before launching a poll. I think we should also be cautious changing things for the sake of change, when it is marginal that either Manual Pens or Current System (FPC) is any better or worse than the other.

I believe John is right, I have also witnessed this sloppy behaviour come to the fore, and it even became a situation where I was accused of favoritism as a host. These are really good points and I believe sailors do play the game differently when there is a chance someone may NOT cancel, it forces players to play as though they are playing an NPC race but at least they have some recourse if they believe the pen is incorrect by either Nadeo or ACCEES Charter standards.

I will agree to the poll, I will agree to the change if we have a majority, but I'm afraid I cannot agree to a mid-season switch, so either way we would not be changing until Season V. Then I'll play whatever you guys think is best for the series.

If nobody has anything to add, I will put this to a poll.

Dan Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:53 am

Lets do the poll - and - we can surely easily do a couple or three trial races away from the present championship - there is no shortage of people wanting to race on ARC servers and we can see how well it works or otherwise
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PostSubject: Re: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:33 am

Lets put the poll to a poll. just joking.

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PostSubject: Re: What Rules best suit ACCEES?...   Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:37 am

Muahahahaha...indeed lets put it to a poll wheather or not we have a poll. Ok Ill put a Poll question up.

Dan Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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